Icarid Species Submission

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krakshot
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Icarid Species Submission

Apologies in advance if this is not the correct place for this.

Icarids

Lifespan: 200-250 years for Resurgent; 2000-3000 years for Remnant.
Typical Height: 5'4" - 6'1", depending on gender.
Distinctive Traits: Large, angelic wings; lack of a shadow; geometric patterns covering the skin.
Where Found: Generally in or around human settlements (Resurgent, Embraced). In solitude in the wilderness (Remnant). Ancient ruins and caves (Fallen, Ravenous).

General Description:
The Icarids are a race of people originally hailing from the Light Realm. They bear a resemblance to humans for the most part, but can be easily distinguished by their huge, angelic-looking wings; notable lack of shadows; and odd looking patterns that resemble birth marks found covering most of their bodies.
An Icarid's wings are usually between 14' and 18' in span at full spread, depending on the size and gender of the individual. Even with wings so large, the Icarid body is accustomed to living within the Light Realm, so flying can be difficult for some.

Icarids have a low rate of reproduction in regards to breeding with each other. There is only a brief window that females are fertile each year, and the odds of conception are somewhat dismal. If an Icarid female does become pregnant, the gestation period is about 12 months.
Icarids can breed with most other humanoid races, but the rate of conception between an interspecies couple is even lower, and the hybrid offspring is always sterile. A hybrid child usually does not inherit the Icarid parent's wings and always inherits the non-Icarid parent's shadow.

Icarids are relatively rare, numbering only in the tens of thousands. Other species often regard them in awe, taking their angelic appearance and affinity for light magic as a sign of divinity. On the contrary, they are quite mortal and stand the risk of becoming extinct if they aren't cautious.

History:
All Icarids, regardless of variety, can trace their origin back to the Light Realm. Once a proud race of warriors, the Icarids' hubris lead to their downfall when they became overrun and infected by creatures of the Shadow Realm. The wise fled to the Material Realm, where they chose to stay to avoid complete destruction at the hands of their shadowy predators.
The great Icarid sorcerer and exile, Daedalus, knew that the Icarids were still in danger even in the material realm. He developed a plan to ensure the survival of his species: to starve the shadowy parasites out. The Icarid children and a relatively few chosen "guardians" were to be sealed within a powerful spell of Daedalus' creation, one that would keep the young ones safe in their own pocket of frozen time and space. It would be centuries before the deal on Daedalus' spell was to be released...

The Castes:
The Icarid species is divided into five distinct groups, referred to loosely as castes. Though many of these castes differ from each other greatly in physical appearance, they are all genetically Icarids.

The Resurgent:
The most common kind of Icarid, the Resurgent constitute the first generation of their kind to be born outside of the Light Realm, and the few hundred "guardians" who accompanied them into hiding. There are perhaps 10,000 Resurgent in total.
Sealed away in a powerful time spell as children just after the Cataclysm, Resurgent are primarily young adults living among the various human civilizations in Vaxia (namely in and around Ramsalon). The youngest of these youths are around 10 years of age, the oldest in their early twenties.
Their guardians are somewhat older Icarids that raised them after the time spell was released some years ago. Guardians are mostly 50 to 150 years of age. Guardians serve as the teachers, protectors, and de Facto leaders of the youths.

Most of the Resurgent follow a strict moral code that involves remaining humble, selfless, and honorable in all that they do, namely in order to avoid repeating the mistakes of their forefathers.
In spite of their caution, the youthful Resurgent are quite adventurous and rowdy by nature. Most try to contribute to the community they are a part of in any way they can, most often finding work as guards or within local military outfits if possible.

Resurgent Icarids mostly stick together within the confines of the various cities they live in. Icarids of blood relation stay the closest, sharing living space and forming something resembling a small family. Several of these small families form Icarid communities, the likes of which are usually under the watch of one of the older guardian class Resurgents.

Most Resurgent know how to speak the original Icarid language, Idyllic. Idyllic is a very artful sounding language, with lots of lilting inflections and fluid pronunciations. Some have compared listening to Icarids speak in native tongue to a pleasant song.
An Icarid's given name can usually find its roots in Idyllic, male names ending in the suffix -os or -us (I.e. Aquillos, Validus) while female names often end in -ia or -ede (I.e. Andaria, Palamede). Surnames often refer to a great deed an ancestor may have preformed, or perhaps something memorable that is related to the individual's family (I.e. Fiendslayer, Goldenbow).
Other young Resurgent have chosen to adopt new names more suitable to their locale.

Icarids are known venerators of the sun. The religious individuals of the Resurgent often have faith in the original Icarid pantheon of gods, the primary deity of which is known as Elliosh, Sovereign of the Dawn. Though there are many gods and goddesses within the Icarid pantheon, Elliosh (being a solar deity) is the only one that is universally accepted by all Icarids of the classic faith. Elliosh worshippers are known for giving fervent prayers to him each morning at sunrise and adhering to a more strict version of the Resurgent moral code. They are also known to wear Elliosh's symbol, the winged sun.
Elliosh worship is not the only religion commonplace among Resurgent, however. Many have taken to following the writings of the hero Daedalus as an almost religious devotion. Other Resurgent have chosen to adopt sun-related deities of other cultures. Others still have asserted that the gods abandoned the Icarid people long ago, and simply choose not to worship deities that must be either dead or ignorant.

Though most Resurgent are content to live among the other races of the Material Realm, there are some Resurgent that aspire to rebuild some of the ancient, floating Icarid structures so they can once again live closer to the sun. This act, like many others that call back to the old Icarid ways, is a controversial one. While many Icarids take pride in their heritage and see such a place as a new place to call home for the Resurgents, others see it as a dangerous act that could once again draw the wretched shadow beings called Nihiloths to infect and destroy the last of the Icarid race.

The Remnant:
A rare breed of Icarid with numbers speculated to be only in the thousands (if not less), the Remnant group are Icarids who were born just in time to witness the downfall of their once-great civilization. The last generation to be born in the Light Realm, they have much greater longevity than the young Resurgent. The Remnant are all quite old, and it shows in their physical features. Some Remnant may be even be the parents of some of the Resurgent, though the likelihood of this is low and the validity difficult to prove.
Remnant Icarids are reclusive, choosing most often to avoid civilization and other Icarids at large. Additionally, they do not have quite the affinity for light magic that Resurgent do.

Remnant Icarids are often fluent in Idyllic, and their names reflect their stature as Light Realm born individuals by being quite regal sounding as compared to the young Resurgent.
Remnant Icarids are mostly non-religious, owing to having seen their society destroyed and the belief that the old Icarid gods are either dead or uncaring. Some Remnant still quietly praise Elliosh in their own way, however.
Remnant Icarids are all infertile, owing to their advanced years, and none of them had any children in their centuries in exile.

Monsters, the Fallen and Ravenous:
These are the remains of Icarids not so fortunate to have escaped their civilization's collapse.
The Fallen are mindless shells that hide in abandoned ruins and caves that attack anything that comes near. Driven mad by the entities that once possessed them, they are little more than ghouls now. Fallen Icarids have lost their wings and their bodies resemble withered corpses, though perhaps their most disturbing feature is their incredibly elongated, clawed fingers. They cannot speak (only grunt and shriek), and they are very sensitive to light. They nest in groups of varied size, ranging from small packs of 3 to 5, and huge hordes consisting of hundreds. The most common nesting place for Fallen are the dilapidated ruins of Icarid structures, the likes if which were jettisoned from the Light Realm many millennia ago.
The guardian class among the Resurgent are wary of the Fallen and urge the youths to avoid them at all costs, but many Resurgent feel that the Fallen should be sought out and eradicated so that the tortured souls can finally be at peace. Despite their weakened, zombie-like state, Fallen can be dangerous in large numbers or to the unwary.

The Ravenous are perversions of once powerful Icarids, now totally consumed by the predatory Nihiloths of the Shadow Realm. The Ravenous' only purpose in existence hunt and kill other Icarids. Ravenous are immensely powerful creatures that both Resurgent and Remnant Icarids fear. Unlike the decrepit Fallen, they still possess their wings, magic, and some level of intelligence, though all of a Ravenous Icarid's physical features have been contorted into something that could almost be described as demonic. Their skin is dark grey, their skin patterns and eyes frequently red or dark purple, and their wings appear rotten or leathery.

Nihiloths and the Embraced:
Little is known about the parasitic entities known by the Icarids as Nihiloths. The beings hail from the Shadow Realm and feed on misery and madness. They appear as wispy, ghostly looking, dark grey blobs before attaching themselves to their host. Nihiloths can apparently only feed from creatures that don't have shadows, becoming the victim's shadow themselves upon attaching. Nihiloths drive their victims into a state worse than insanity, usually leaving their host as a desiccated husk like the Fallen.
There is one exceedingly rare exception to this parasitic relationship and its inevitable result: the fifth breed of Icarid, the Embraced.
Embraced are Icarids who have fallen prey to a Nihiloth and not been driven entirely mad. Instead, through various means, Embraced manage to form a mutually beneficial bond with their shadowy tormentors. The physical and psychological trauma of this event typically leaves the Icarid bereft of both their wings and their memory, while simultaneously instilling the Nihiloth with a new level of sapience.

Embraced are not recognized as Icarids by the Resurgent. Most don't realize that an Embraced can exist at all. Other Icarids generally assume that an Embraced is human, and the amnesiac embraced usually believe they are correct. The very limited few who are aware of the truth of the Embraced find them repulsive. Icarids already have a deep-seated fear and hatred for Nihiloths; for an Icarid to have bonded with one is seen as abominable.

The few existing Embraced live among various human societies on the Vaxian continent. With the exception of their skin patterns, Embraced appear human and thus blend in relatively well. Embraced have a tendency to fall in with some of the more unsavory groups of Vaxia owing to their dark origins, though this is not always the case. The Embraced's most resounding characteristic seems to be their insatiable ambition. Low-ranking positions or jobs are rarely satisfactory to an Embraced Icarid, so they are often noted to be the first ones to push for higher levels of power within an organization.

Zxehenia
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http://vaxia.org/forums/setting-department would have been the recommended place to post.
You are also 10 HXP away from the 40HXP requirement as stated in: http://vaxia.org/wiki/playable-species-submission-guidelines

Initial reading:
We already have a species with large angelic wings capable of magic : http://vaxia.org/wiki/air-elves
Part of what you have here may actually be better to convert to an air elf clans and such rather then a whole new species. Really the biggest difference that would be between air elves and the winged icarid is the lack of shadow and geometric shapes (of which can be done with tattoos)

The rest sounds like they would be better for NPCs then a playable species, especially as there doesn't seem to be much of a mention of culture for the species. So far I saw just the one culture before the variations were mentioned. Its more then just physical difference needed.

krakshot
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The system won't let me post

The system won't let me post there and I'm aware of my lack of exp, but I've been working on this for awhile and I wanted to post it now.

The whole point of the project was to make a winged species that wasn't the bird-like air elves, nor a subspecies of elves at all. It was also to fill a sort of fallen angel trope that, as of now, Vaxia does not have.

I don't know what you'd define as a culture if mention of where they live, what language they speak, what common names are, and they're usual living situations don't count. That's what the wiki page asked for.

Now, I worked on this for a very long time back with Jimmy and he still shut me down despite people having shown interest back then. Could you please help me so I don't just get turned down again?

Bastlynn
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As you saw from working on

As you saw from working on the other species thread, it can take a lot of work to put together a species. A lot of that is because you're building something for the whole site - not for one-person. And even more - you're building for future players who may be here ten years from now, not just the people who are playing right now. We've been around for nearly 20 years now (seriously, omg) so we're wanting to make sure we build as solidly as we can up front so we don't have to revise things 10 years from now.

Definitely look at this as a long-term back and forth conversation - we are wanting to get your work up to spec and that means multiple rounds of drafts and tweaks to the ideas. I know this stuff isn't easy and it's never easy to get criticism on an idea you've worked hard on. I suspect you didn't really get a lot of in detail guidance on the last round - and truthfully, we didn't have set requirements back then either. There wasn't a goal to aim for - we have that now.

This is a thing that can take a lot of rough drafts and extra passes, as well as the play-test phase. We're going to apply the same specs we hold all the other species to. I'm figuring you'll probably have the 40XP by the time we've got this hammered all the way out, so we'll just keep developing on it. If you want to get access to posting on the Setting boards - just hit the Walkthru ( http://vaxia.org/quizzes/new-player-setting-walkthrough ) and be sure to opt-in at the end.

Specific crits on this draft on my next post cause I don't want to run long on this one....

krakshot
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Thanks Bast

I'm definitely willing to continue to work on this concept and improve it, I just don't want to see it discarded or turned into a subculture of a subspecies.

Bastlynn
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Ok, so on the species side of

Ok, so on the species side of this. Keeping in mind this is basically rough draft here, so I'm gonna drill down from there. This is a bit long, I apologize - but I'm trying to hit the big points and give enough feedback so you know where to go from there. You've got a lot to work on here and some of it is all the way down on the concept level - not just filling in gaps for information.

So you may want to go through in chunks on this.

Possible tone issues:

The mood for the setting is aiming for a DnD style fantasy, aimed for the Renaissance / Age of Exploration in terms of tech and atmosphere. It's going to generally be lighter hearted in tone and a bit more on the escapism side of the genre. Think less "Game of Thrones" more "Stardust", without being quite all the way over at "How to Train Your Dragon" or "Discworld".

So one of the big things we want to do here is make sure this species matches with that tone and mood so it doesn't break the 4th wall for players. That match is a big part of feeling like it's internally consistent with the setting.

That's one potential issue I'm seeing here: "angels" are very closely tied to Judeo-Christian myth and mood. That's a bit more serious than we're aiming for and for some players would be extremely serious for personal reasons be they positive or negative. People take real life religion very seriously and we're still way too close to that in this draft.

Scope:

We're actively trying to avoid having personifications of deific influence on the site. Faith in a god on Vaxia is meant to remain a question of faith for the PC. There's a number of reasons for that but the most practical one is that in an online site with a persistent setting - there are implementation issues with letting SH's run around with gods. It risks damaging player agency and setting up our SH's for power trips. Basically: The internet is full of dicks so we're not giving those dicks gods to play with.

By tying this species that closely to the "Angel" concept, that opens up a implied nod from Setting that god(s) exist. While these species may have a non-religious origin and by using the realm of light here you're definitely going in that direction, that's still just putting a lampshade on the idea. You've even said yourself you're viewing them as angels, and the fallen/corrupt war in the Light realm is just reinforcing the idea.

On top of that, by typing the idea so closely to something as non-mortal as "Angels" you're also building in a greater-than-others aspect to this species. That's reinforced in your description of other species reactions to them. The game system doesn't reflect that and we don't want to introduce any player species as 'better than' or 'greater than' other species on an innate level. So there's a huge risk of this species being taken as much more than what it actually is by players who come to it. I know Vaxia doesn't have a "fallen angel" trope species - that's on purpose, not an oversight.

If we have to constantly say "They're not really angels and there's no confirmation of god(s) in the setting" to correct people who read the implications... then we've done something wrong in the initial writeup. Future players are going to see the angel connection and play it up and that's actually not what we want to see for the setting. So it's a fine line to hit that idea without triggering the Judeo-Christian implications.

I don't think we're there yet on this draft and if it's a really critical aspect of your concept - then then species may be a non-starter based on that. If the intent is to play an angel with this species then this just isn't the setting for it and I can't really think of any way to make that work. Suggestions welcome, but given issues may be baked so deep into the concept... it's gonna be tricky.

Monoculture:

We are trying to use the word species instead of race. For a number of reasons, but the biggest one is that seems to get people out of the habit of viewing a species as a race of singular origin. Just like humans have a wide variety (American culture, Chinese culture, west Europe, east Europe, and all SORTS of variety in how their societies all over are) - that's what we're expecting out of all species on the site.

A culture is more than just looks and what they eat - those are trappings, symbols. I eat grits and collards and Dragonstar may rock it on salads and pizza - but there's no question that we're both from a white American culture. The second biggest consumer of sushi is the US - but there's no way anyone would mistake the American culture for Japanese or vice versa.

If you dropped my ass in the middle of China, even though I'm very good at eating with chopsticks there's no doubt I'd still be American. I could dress the part, eat and act the part - but I'm not the part until there's been decades for me to assimilate. And if you're thinking "well duh, white girl you're not going to look Chinese" - then that's exactly the reason we're doing this. I don't look Chinese. But my 2nd gen Chinese roommate from college does and she is absolutely American too and would have the same culture shock for being dropped into that situation. Culture is not the same as race is not the same as nationality and is not the same as species.

So aim for those wider differences. These should be groups that not only are visibly distinct from each other - they have different goals and needs. They should have different histories, values, and motives.

Where this falls apart specifically for this species is here: "The Icarid species is divided into five distinct groups, referred to loosely as castes." In order to be a caste culture - they have to be the SAME culture.

There's functionally no cultural difference between the Resurgents and the Remnants. The second group is just a generational difference.

There's also functionally no cultural difference between the Resurgents and the Monsters. The second group is morally corrupt and criminal, that's a personal difference not cultural. In addition the writeup here states they're mindless - that makes them NOT eligible to be played by a PC. So the Monsters are out of the running as a second culture on two counts.

There's also no cultural difference for the Embraced either. The description here puts the Embraced closer to something like a vampire than a species. Again, individual difference not cultural.

Minor things:

"Other species often regard them in awe, taking their angelic appearance and affinity for light magic as a sign of divinity." Just like your species is meant to be a collection of various view points - so are other species! So it is much much better to avoid the generic "everyone reacts like X" sort of approach. Specific groups in specific areas might do this and if they do you should note them - by name and location.

For example - the neth and the dwarves under Shi Inkahni - both have a theme of fighting underground oni. That means those two groups are likely to view each other positively as allies - as opposed to neth and dwarves under the Kundal mountains who are much more likely to view each other as competition for the same resources or as invaders.

"Daedalus", "Icarus" and misc Greek references. Not to put too fine a point on it, but we'd like not to add even more names to our list of "obvious derivative" names in the setting. It was bad then, it's bad now, and we can avoid doing that by just being a little more creative about the names we pick.

We have way too many gods as it is and we're working right not to consolidate them into a universal pattern that will make them easier to work with for the future. I suggest re-skinning the basic seven we have as your pantheon, treating them as the same just "known by other names". Like how the Greeks and Romans are "same with different names". There's a project going at the moment to clean up the scattering of deities we have floating around to consolidate them under that theme - and that'll bring your species pantheon up to match that.

Tanya
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My two cents

For what it's worth... Though I have read the draft that had been put up here before everything changed and Jimmy decided to take his leave of the site. I like the idea of it! :)

My biggest question in all of this is the reason for the introduction of this species. Why are you introducing it? Is it for a character concept that you have running in your head? Because if that's the case, then perhaps we can find a way to get that character concept to work in the Vaxian world without having to introduce an entirely new species for it.

krakshot
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Explanations

Thanks for taking your time to put in a real critique. I was going for a Judeo-Christian vibe at all, it was half of the reason I based the Icarids out of the Light Realm. They're essentially Outsiders. I even mentioned this in their description: they aren't at all divine creatures, they're mortals that look like something out of a fairy tail.
But like you said, this isn't reason enough to seperate them from being looked at as angels, so I'm open to suggestions as to what I could do to fix that.

As for how people react to them, I suppose that could be changed to more of a fearful or agitated response, but you've directly told me that people react differently to different species. People see Neth and automatically distrust them. You see an Orc and assume they must be strong. You see a Minotaur and assume its violent. What would people do when they saw a man with no shadow and a 16 foot wingspan walking down the street?

Monsters were intended to be NPC's potentially usable as enemies in a SH's session if anyone ever decided to use them.
It's difficult to come up with multiple cultures for such a small species but still give them a reason as to why they've never been seen before in the world.

As for the minor issues, names can always be changed. I'm not particularly attached to Daedalus or any of the other names, they're really just kind if placeholders, though the name of the species might be a bit difficult to swap since the entire concept of the species is "got to confident, fell from grace as a result."

Overall I'm willing to make changes in order to make them work as a species. I've already rewritten them twice, I'm ready to do it again.

@Tanya:
Two reasons:
The first, I wanted to have a winged species in the game that wasn't just ANOTHER elf subspecies or an anthropomorphic animal.
The second reason...well, I want to be able to leave a mark on this place. Maelstrom did that with the Letai, and in my opinion they were a much less solid concept than what I've got here. I've got a whole arcing story idea for when I finally do become a SH that I'd like to use the Icarids for, too. I wanted to create something that everyone, future players included, could make use of and enjoy on an IC level...

Zxehenia
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Bast hit on the major points.

Another aspect to consider when designing a whole new species for the site is what niche would this fill for players. In other words, why would someone want to play this species instead of what we have already.

If someone wanted to play a humanoid with large wings we already have two options for that - winged elves and large size fairies. What would make them different enough to warrant a need for a whole new species? In the current format I am not seeing much that would warrant that other then it does give me the feeling of angels and fallen angels, which as bast mentioned is not included in the Vaixa setting on purpose.

The same stands for the other differences listed, right now someone can have that type of character with the species we have, or as bast mentioned wouldn't be able to make the pc species list due to lack of free will.

Another note the realm of light and shadow realm are not opposites of each other (the original realms map the shadow realm is actually between the realm of light and the realm of darkness). Another thing worth trying to avoid is any possibility of automatically label any group to always be 'dark' or 'evil' (which the impression is given by some of your variants there) - this is something that should be left up for PCs to perceive for themselves in regards to other player species to allow outliers due to free will.

Bastlynn
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That bit about how it's a

That bit about how it's a hard thing to expand a second culture on such a small population - that's really where the problem in fantasy species-as-race design is. Cause it is hard! You're pretty much cutting yourself off at the knees there. I would suggest expanding your numbers and your backstory to pick up more elements.

You might want to branch out to other forms and types of 'angels' to give yourself some more fodder to throw into the sausage as you blend it up on this next draft.

For example!

Northern Europe: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valkyrie

Zorastrian angels: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahura , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fravashi

Islamic guardian angels: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mu%27aqqibat , and Jinn http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jinn

Greek: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eudaemon_%28mythology%29 , spirits http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genius_%28mythology%29

Egyptian Ka: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Egyptian_concept_of_the_soul#Ka_.28...

Hindu: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apsara, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pitrs, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gandharva

Buddhist sky dancers: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dakini

Cherokee Nûñnë'hï : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N%C3%BB%C3%B1n%C3%AB%27h%C3%AF

There's tons of angel or angel-like concepts out there that you could tap into as you work on this.

krakshot
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@Zxe

I feel like you're really not listening to what I have to say here, but I'll play along.

For one thing not everyone enjoys the idea of playing an elf or fae. Again, I was shooting for a "fallen angel" sub theme, but overall they are Outsiders, something Vaxia lacks and (so far as I know) has no reason not to include. I've actually considered making Icarids look remarkably less human, giving them glowy skin an making them appear as though they're made of energy, to give them more of a light elemental feel. This would also help enforce them more as Outsiders rather than simply a religious reference.

Also, I repeat, the Fallen and Ravenous are INTENDED to be NPC's. They are barely more intelligent than zombies or animals and were meant to be a plot point and an enemy, much like how the Crowned in Sirian are essentially psychically possessed humans.

I'm aware of the nature of the realms, I was made to go over their lore thoroughly when the original concept for the Icarids was rejected and I was told to move them to the realm of light.
Nihiloths are just supposed to be one species of creature that come from there and prey upon Icarids. I didn't actually say that Resurgent, Remnant, or Embraced were locked into one particular alignment of light and dark, either, only that the NPC Fallen and Ravenous were feral and dangerous.

On a seperate note, I think I may have come up with a means of dividing the Icarids into an actual second culture, but it would mean one of their floating buildings from the Light Realm would have to exist in Vaxia.
EDIT: @Bast, that's another alternative, I could definitely work around different cultural interpretations of angels. Wouldn't that lead to the same issues though?

Zxehenia
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And I don't think you are getting what I am saying.

One of the other things we are trying to do is also keep species bloat down.

So I keep asking you why not just an elf or fae, and you give me - because I don't want that. Which is fine, but you need more detail in as what would attract people in to playing this species. This isn't just about what you want, this is about something that will attract other people to it to make them want to play it. I am currently just not seeing that in your write up. So I am trying to encourage you to think on that question to come up with things that will help you expand upon this and get the goals needed for a new playable species. So what truly makes these so different that people won't just go 'eh I can do that with an elf or fairy.'

Vaxia actually does (or at least did) have 'outsider' species, just all of them are under the NPCs for the moment or have been deleted due to issues that arouse in the past (such as one SH using them to destroy the entire city of ramsalon and killed all the PCs, or another SH that used the mysterious extra planar beings came and saved all the PCs cuz their dice sucked in a huge saga story). Much of the deleting also came about after an event where a barrier was put up to stop inter-planar travel, so those beings could no longer get into Vaxia - that has been reworked since then so that should be a non issue. But that is the cliffnotes on what happened to the past outsiders as you call them

As for the NPC ones being intentional:
1) we posted at the same time so I didn't see your response until after I posted
2) I would say don't include it in a playable species write up, because we are going to be looking for them under the same scope. So I would suggest pulling that out and making it a separate submission so that isn't there bloating up the information and make it clear on the intent rather then having to come back and say that it wasn't the intention for it to be playable, it will also keep players from getting confused - after all if we are saying it then other people reading it will pick up on that and may not know of the intent.

Bastlynn
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She is hearing you - but

She is hearing you - but Outsiders, I'm assuming you're working from the DnD / Planescape idea here - are the thing we're trying not to do. We actually don't want to introduce angels / demons / devils. We've had those before, it didn't work out and they were set aside as part of clearing up the god-level interference.

Please keep in mind, Jimmy and Plasma didn't share any of their conversation with you with anyone else. We're starting from scratch here so we don't know what you already know and what you've already looked at or reviewed. The previous leads didn't leave us any notes or anything on what they've already covered with you.

If the monsters and critters are intended to be NPCs then let's go ahead and strike them from this writeup, they're wasting valuable space there. We can put that sort of stuff in with supplemental material, but as much of the writeup for a player species should be about player relevant stuff. Save the extra info for later though since it might be useful then.

Light elementals, or even just elementals in general - that's probably a much better direction to start looking. Pulling in other mythologies to scrub more of the vin numbers of the judeo-christian angle myth origin may help as well. The point is to come up with something that's new or not immediately recognizable for it's origin.

krakshot
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Bleh

My sincerest apologies to both of you. I'm just a bit frustrated is all. At this point the original concept is probably out the window. I'm probably just going to rewrite them as elementals then, since 3/5ths of the content is unusable.

Bastlynn
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I know it's a frustrating

I know it's a frustrating sort of thing. :-/ I wish you'd been able to get a clearer answer on this sooner. That was why I was worried that the incompatible parts of the concept were baked in all the way down. The original idea isn't a bad idea it's just not a fit for this setting - another setting, another site - it is worth tossing it into the 'keep for later' pile.

Going full towards the elemental direction sounds good. We'll keep an eye out for the post, and of course there's no rush. This sort of setting development is a marathon not a race. :)

Zxehenia
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It isn't easy writing up a new species from the ground up. I know its gonna take me weeks to update the elves and I have material to work with from the get go. So frustration is understandable, but hopefully you have some ideas on where to go from here. We are here to answer questions as well.

Honestly what you have above, with some adjustments, will still work great for the air elves or even the greater fae, and even help fill in some we gaps we have. If your rework ends up going in a completely different direction then what you have now, take it into consideration at least.

krakshot
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@Zxe

How do you mean? Do the air elves need a lore rewrite or something?

Bastlynn
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Neither the air elves nor the

Neither the air elves nor the large winged fey had well... much of anything on them right now. They didn't get touched on during the species rewrite and most of their info never hit the wiki.

Zxehenia
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What bast said

All our species are actually in need of rewrites to bring them up to date with our guidelines - hence why we had the open source project to get some ideas in for that.

Currently the air elves are one of the races of elves that lack a lot of information (even way before the species rewrite project) and are on the fence of being shelved as an other until they can be reworked. Same goes for the greater fairies (which are human sized fae). And what you have above can easily go in either direction and help us fill in some of that information.

Tanya
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If you want...

I'd be happy to help you Krak, if you want a second set of eyes on it.

krakshot
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I'll see what I can do about

I'll see what I can do about turning the old lore into something for the Air Elves.

@Tanya, I'd love that. I've already started writing up the new lore and you've got a much better grasp on what will and won't fly here than I do, so I'd super appreciate the help :)

Tanya
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:)

Shoot me a message or an email and we'll get to work on that.